Are such oaths regarded as paramount in their obligations upon them to those taken upon the witness stand before a civil or military tribunal?

Answer. The general view among them is that the oaths they take as members are paramount in their obligation to any which they may be called upon to take whether it be in courts of justice, before military tribunals, or in any other proceedings.

Question. With the knowledge you have, then, of the character of the order, how would you regard, if placed as a juror in the jury box, on a trial for murder, the testimony of a witness who was a member of the order, if the prison arraigned was also known to you to be a member of it?

Answer. It would have no influence at all.

Question. Can you state to me the number of temples in the city of Saint Louis?

Answer. I cannot. I believe there are only two of the first degree and two of the second and third degrees, and a grand council.

Question. Have you any knowledge of the withdrawal of Mr. Hunt from the order before his arrest?

Answer. Of my own knowledge, Numbers I have heard while in prison that he resigned in expectation of being arrested.

Question. Have you any knowledge on that subject in regard of Mr. Dunn?

Answer. While in prison Charles E. Dunn and myself were in consultation as to what course it would be best to pursue. He suggested resignations if it could be managed. I told him to let the resignations go to the evil and come right down on the ritual before the provost-marshal. By this I meant a full acknowledgment of our relations to the order.

Question. Have you any recollection of ever having heard among the members of the order that there was any particular steam-boat on the river upon which it would be safe to ship contraband goods or to travel on?

Answer. Yes, sir; the steamer Graham; Rowland, captain.

Question. Have you any recollection of a meeting of the council of the order at Indianapolis just prior to your arrest?

Answer. No, sir.

Question. Is or is not the universally accepted theory of the members of the order, in substance, this: That the chose officers of the Federal Government have usurped authority, and that it is not only an inherent right but an imperative duty for all who think as the members do to resist those Federal functionaries, and if need be expel them from power by force?

Answer. That is my understanding.

Question. Is it not distinctly claimed by the members of this order, and so announced in the ritual, that such resistance is not revolution, but solely the assertion of right?

Answer. Yes, sir; I believe it is.

Question. I then understand that the principles of this order as held by the members thereof are such that if one of its members should assassinate Mr. Lincoln because of his alleged usurpation of power, such members' conduct would be justified by the entire order, and that it would be the sworn duty of all to keep secret the act and save him from being brought to trial and punishment for it?

Answer. Yes, sir.

42 R R - SERIES II, VOL VII